Certainly if I looked at them close up I could tell, and I could also tell if I was wearing them. Like I said, it wont work for everyone, but might be an option if on a budget. Something to keep in mind. I absolutely could not go a half-size down. Carlos Santos are another example of value shoes of great quality to price ratio. Both of my pinky toes stick slightly out, sometimes I say I have splayed toes, but it's really just the pinky toe on each foot likes a bit of room. I returned this pair. REGULATION AND US. Very hard to break in and stiff leathers. Andres Sendra: I have a pair of wholecuts. E. D. E. Wide. I just purchased them and they are in transit from Sweden. Jack & White Bros Round Last 9: Probably the best fit now. Would really appreciate any advice you can give! Forest is a rounded toe, regular instep and more room across the forepart. I shall have to give bespoke shoes a try some day. While, as you mention, most people dont see the difference between a 400 Goodyear welted shoe and a 4,000 bespoke shoe. Im going to give Cheaney (great value in the sales) a try instead. Unlined Carmina loafers. Measured as 9.5 D. Will get more detailed measurements after the pandemic, along with a military last fitting. I will refrain from commenting on fit unless people think it will be helpful. Has the quality of Crockett & Jones gone above Carmina lately? Altra Lone Peak 3.5: 12D, weirdly enough. Their online interface is very easy to use, and being able to make these selection is so much better than being constrained to the ready-made options a manufacturer has selected. I would agree that some change has happened since Stollenwerk sold the company to an investment fund, they seem to have gone into the greed and certainly for some cost cutting somewhere to make up for the handicap of making in the US. Really? Bought before I understood my size. I mean, if you give the former a high shine they will likely get more attention than the latter with a lesser shine. All leather if even sanded a tiny bit to remove flaws in the skin is corrected. Alden Van (unlined shell): 10D, ended up selling before fully breaking in. I have really been liking many of your posts for this season. Its a helpful round up, especially since I find this price bracket to be a sweet spot for my own purposes. !!! In particular, if you're interested in this price bracket, check out, https://shoegazing.com/2016/08/12/review-crownhill-shoes-the-stewart/, https://shoegazing.com/2015/09/06/review-carlos-santos-7201-braga-cognac/, https://www.afinepairofshoes.co.uk/products/berwick-1707-penny-loafer-9628-dark-brown-suede?variant=19309209288766&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5ZCblaOs6gIVdBPTCh32aAttEAEYASABEgKcGvD_BwE, https://www.carminashoemaker.com/penny-loafers-brown-suede-80113, https://britishshoecompany.co.uk/collections/berwick-1707/products/berwick-mens-derby-leather-lace-up-shoes-5768-k6, https://it.velasca.com/collections/francesine-goodyear. I recommend .5 down and just accepting that it is a wide pattern. The two lasts I mentioned are super comfortable straight out of the box, and I can wear them all day without the slightest discomfort. Finally and most importantly, find a last that truly fits your feet. You could specify any combo you wanted (dark navy to black, or dark purple to black, etc.) MASSIVE. Below that, there are smaller differences created by new entrants to the market. Im happy to pay a bit more for that consistency and service. Good plan. My understanding is that AE is below the likes of Crocketts in terms of make, but thats based on the input of people like Jesper who know more about them than I do. TLB Artista full review here Rancourt 800 9D: Great fit. This is certainly true, and prices mentioned in this article are towards each brands respective domestic markets.. Whats interesting is that for US customers it can go both ways depending on guidelines/restrictions from the brands. They both have a very knowledgeable blog dedicated to shoes. Simon as always your articles are informative and an education. Carmina vs Meermin: First glance I just don't love Rancourt's boot patterns and overall build. Why spend 400 retail when you can get a great pair of shoes for half that? Thanks EL. Pepe Albaladejo runs Meermin with his father Jose, who founded the company in 2001 by selling through the legendary shoe mecca that is Tokyo's Isetan department store. Thats is some very useful information Jesper, thank you! Well Id imagine the aim is to make more money, given that some will know the Cleverley name and want to buy into it. My Yanko boots I enjoy in the winter months here in New Zealand (about now). Viberg 2020 8.5 GYW: Kinda snug, had to stretch out the instep, slightly smaller than the stitchdown version. Brilliant. They wear down quickly.. For example, I dont really care about super fine handwork on a shirt. * **Thomas George Popes** 7.5UK quite snug, grips heel well but pinches the toes a bit. * **Viberg 2030** 8 snug but not too tight, * **Viberg 2030** 8.5 a bit loose in the heel in CXL, comfortable when laced tightly all the way up, * **Winson OLD Edlyn** EU41 sized on advice of Emil via foot measurements, a touch short. Perhaps Alden, which usually has the option for lots of widths? I find that you almost always get what you pay for when it comes to goodyear welted shoes and both of these shoemakers are a big step up from all the budget tier brands I have tried in terms of materials, fit, craftmanship and durability. Lobb, Green etc have never felt as good in my experience, and in the real world I have never been able to see how or where they could justify their relatively higher prices. One brand not mentioned were the French company Bexley. AEs MacNeil is the epitome of wingtips imho. There arent many industries where youre so often buying direct from the maker, and having little additional costs along the way. Carminas are better than Meermin shoes today because of one major thing: Better Material Quality. Sounds like a nice choice of shoes. Good engineer last and terrible service boot, there's a reason they never went production on em. Carminas are more expensive than Meermin shoes, but they are also more valuable. The 5th toe of my right foot has always been mildly adducted and overlapping the 4th toe. I still end up with shoes that are markedly higher quality than the vast majority of whats sold, and the more reasonable prices allow me to accumulate a broader range of options. You are using an out of date browser. Im not sure what you have to back up that this wouldnt be the case? The next level of price is below 250. Red Wing 8 last 9D: Decent fit at first, fairly comfortable once broken in. Not sure the best place for this, and realise there is no correct answer but was wondering your view on the proportional cost of shoes to suits, shirts etc? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, This is an example of what a good comment looks like. Heel is a bit wider than I'd like when new but does break in. Viberg 2040 8.5: No variable widths for this last. Also it seems that Carmina outlet in Granada used to sell Meermin shoes a few years back. Carmina Simpson Oxford - 10 UK. There are many brands in that segment, such as Joeworks or October Tenth, that I think might appeal to a fair number of PS readers. Also, I dont think youve ever written about painted patina on shoes . Finally, in terms of comfort, the insoles are much thicker and more comfortable in terms of conforming to the shape of my foot than any other shoes on this list (including Weston) other than Andres Sendra. Perhaps someone will find them useful: 1. Plain black Oxfords from Churchs who are near the rail station. Would be an excellent fit with a wider toe box and lower instep. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It is certain that a great pair of Carmina shoes would last you longer than any pair of Meermin shoes today. Thanks Simon, great work as always. Any sock works but medium thickness (Darn Tough light cushion) is ideal. Do you think there is a difference in comfort? I believe that I am at the upper limit for this last. (Portuguese shoemaker) Viberg 2030E 9: Specifically for the Halketts which have a trimmed waist and slight pattern changes these are okay in a half size up with boot socks. Suede. Now use your measurement and select the size based on your foot's length (see size chart below). Very comfortable, great instep for oxfords, * **Trickers W2298** 8UK a bit tight at the toes, perfectly snug everywhere else, * **Trickers 4444** 8UK tiny bit of heel slip, fits like a dream at the ball, * **Thomas George Jackas** 7.5UK a bit roomy. Onderhound New Buteo 41.5: Volume is a little high, but the width and arch length are bang on. I have owned shoes from most of the English brands, and 5-10 Spanish brands and 5-10 Italian brands, and its a quite clear difference (but again, there are exceptions in both directions. Fast worldwide deliveries; 14 day returns; . TLB Mallorca: I own a wingtip on the Alan last. Shoe makes are easier than almost anything to compare in this respect, because you get something more at each level. Most brands provide one width per shoe/last, which in the end really limits your ability to find the right fit (not to mention, to find the right fit for the shoe you actually want to buy). In India there is Bridlen (below), which makes a very solid, classic-looking shoe. The leather used to make Carmina shoes is better than the leather materials used to make Meermin shoes. ), but perhaps that wouldnt be entirely appropriate. Good point Ben, Im not sure. I have a pair of Chelsea boots by Sanders, bought at John Rushtons. These shoes are well-appraised by people worldwide for their comfort, style, and proper appearance. Too tight in the vamp and mid-foot. Sure David. No stretch sir. *Although I trust Jespers impartiality, it needs to be stated that he now works for Skolyx, which has its own shoe brand and sells other shoes. Cheers Adam, and very pleased thats the case. I recently started to be more careful about how I track my wardrobe spending. Yeah, Luca Rubinacci apparently also has a cooperation with them, which frankly I dont understand, Just for info, Velasca in Italy does have a selection of shoes that are Goodyear welted:https://it.velasca.com/collections/francesine-goodyear Whether C&J main or hand, Trickers, Alfred Sargent Exclusive, Cheaney or Carmina, Ive saved a fortune buying from the U.K. every time with no VAT, fair shipping and often times on terrific sales due to COVID and needing to move their inventory. Just make sure Trickers does not end up too chunky for you. Morjas definitely makes decent shoes, even though I wouldnt recommend buying any pair with leather soles, as these are the worst soles Ive ever encountered. Wesco MP1339 9E: It's alright, toe box is really low and the gusset take up volume running the whole way up the boot as it is fully gusseted. Absolutely do not take it 1.5 down from Brannock like Viberg recommends. Carmina shoes have better soles than the Meermin shoes. Maybe this section could be titled North America rather than United States. Meermin US UK Narrow. Allen Edmonds on the other hand has been declining in quality. No worries at all, its much appreciated. Please use this thread to list your sizing in various lasts compared to your Brannock size. I suppose they get away with it because the overwhelming majority of their customers arent that knowledgeable about shoes or leather quality. Edward Green does for example. Ive around 20 pairs of Carmina, 2 of C&J mainline and a dozen of C&J hangrade. Noel: That was the point I was trying to make, when I wrote: whats my experience, and I know for many others as well who have good bespoke shoes, is that the experience of wearing them, with the snug comfortable fit, excellent arch support etc, widely triumph wearing RTW/MTO Goodyear welted shoes. The instep is high, but massive on the service boot pattern. With Skolyx the price is cut down by making a basic shoe, but clean and consistent. This is interesting my experience is the complete opposite. I could not ask for a better fitting oxford. Some of it is differences in leather and lined vs unlined, but a lot of it is lasting differences. 10 Best Ortholite Replacement Insoles (Reviewed in 2022), 11 Best Water Shoes for Water Parks | Footslide, Highly-Durable Shoe Construction and Design, Meermins dont last as long as Carmina shoes, You can get most Carminas for cost prices between 341 and 407, You can buy Meermin shoes for prices between $160 and $210. These shoes have seen some heavy use and have been worn at least twice as much as the previous pair. Ended up selling years later. Makes buying difficult, much like with Vass. I was very impressed with the integrity of your website after reading IS THIS AN ADVERT? The quality difference was like night and day and Id have no hesitation recommending the Loake 1880s as a good budget shoe. Carmina shoes are made with premium materials that are much superior to materials used for making Meermin shoes. So if you wear for example UK10 in your Meermin we recommend UK9,5 in . At Styleforum, youll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis. After trying on shoes in Trading Post, the fit is so much better than any western brands Ive ever tried. But the insoles are very comfortable and have molded to my feet nicely. I dont cover the other brands on this list normally either. I usually just buy shoes in the 500 range when they go on sale for 200-300, but in the 300 range I really like the Austrian manufacturer Handmacher; they make shoes on traditionally boxy Viennese lasts, and they use tiny wooden nails to connect the soles to the uppers. document.getElementById("ak_js_1").setAttribute("value",(new Date()).getTime()); Footslide.com is a full-time participant of the Amazon Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com, 2023 Footslide.com | All Rights Reserved. Probably also worth mentioning the Carlos Santos brand from Portugal in this price bracket. heel and instep grips without the toe being too restrictive, * **Edward Green 82** 8.5UK pretty good forefoot with too much heel slip. Definitely wish Viberg made more boots on this last. Permanent Style is the UK authority on classic and luxury menswear. I have to disagree. Their prices and quality is a good balance. At Styleforum, youll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis. France doesnt have the shoemaking tradition of the UK, Spain or Italy, and its brands like Loding or Orbans are all made in Spain and Portugal. Especially compared to other Spanish or Italian shoes, which are also a bit softer than the English., North America: Spier & MacKay, Allen Edmonds, Cobbler Union, John Doe. very lucky to have bought 8 pairs of EG at a big discount so my shoe cupboard is overflowing and needs to be trimmed now Slightly low instep and volume. NF Bootmaker 43.5: Had these modified for a wider waist as the 44 was a bit long. Youre better off looking at the tannery the leather came from and if it had a recognizable leather name (cxl for example) but even within that there are gradations on the product from the same tannery. I would like to recommend Trading Post in Japan. 9.5D heel to toe. See and interact with all Instagram stories @PermanentStyleLondon. Carminas are better than Meermin shoes today because of one major thing: Better Material Quality. Simon, I was wondering what are your thoughts on Sanders. They have done a small amount of RTW for a while, its just enlarged recently. Their sole is often thinner compared to the English brands (eg CJ etc), which works fine during the warmer summer months. Yes they do take a while to break in, but once they were, they ended up being just as comfortable as all my other GYW shoes. Quoddy maliseets in lined suede: 11D, fits amazingly. Similar wide heel to the 1035. My girlfriend values their classic oxfords because they are not Goodyear and have soft insoles making them very comfy. Actually, given the reader survey we did last year and how much the average reader earns and spends, I wouldnt be surprised if most do spend that regularly on their shoes. Can you please comment on the poor quality of English soles mentioned. After that in the US you get down into much cheaper brands, like John Doe which are made in Mexico. This I find quite interesting, since you certainly arent the only one. Ive decided to get a pair of loafers, which Id wear with flannels, chinos, dark denim and (occasionally) shorts. s. It is my impression that, notwithstanding Cleverleys arm-waving and misdirection regarding their provenance, the Cleverely RTW are made by C&J. Carmina Simpson 8.5UK: Tried for oxfords but had to return, instep was too low for closed lacing. Ive purchased a few Grenson pieces this year. You may learn more here. Meermin shoes are also very comfortable due to the relaxed feel of their Double Insoles System but they are not as comfortable as the Carmina shoes. Are morjas using leather or plastic heel stiffeners? RM Williams Comfort Craftsman: 9.5G AUS - Great fit. The Hand-Welting construction of these shoes makes them be very good dress shoes that can fit into any wardrobe quite easily. I beg to disagree. * **Alden Aberdeen** 9D loosened up a bit with wear, * **Alden Van** 8.5D comfortable in shell, * **Antonio Meccariello Aeris Soft Square** 8.5UK excellent fit, * **Antonio Meccariello Chisel II** 8.5UK bit loose all round, I suspect half a size down would have fit better but a become a bit tight at the pinky toe, * **Berwick1707 240** 42EU quite snug all round, perfect for a summer loafer, * **Carlos Santos 1944/r1s** 8UK fantastic loafer fit, * **Carlos Santos 401/s** 8UK forefoot a bit roomy, * **Carmina Pina** 8UK too much heel slip for a loafer, * **Carmina Simpson** 8.5UK instep too low, * **Clematis Ginza unknown oxford last** 8UK (made by Joe Works, also too low an instep), * **Common Projects Achilles Low** 41EU Fits but toe box feels too low, * **Common Projects Achilles Low** 42EU Great fit, * **Crockett & Jones 314** 8EUK snug all round, not much toe room, * **Edward Green 184** 8.5UK fantastic loafer fit. 6.5D Carmina: 5.5: UK: Forest, Robert - 5.5UK: 6.5D Carmina Forest: 5.5: UK: 5.5UK with a smidge of heel slip: These should fit TTS for people with higher arches but this last is definitely not for me. This goes for Allen Edmonds now as well, where they will routinely reach 700 if bought directly from the manufacturer shipped out to Canada. Ive only been reading PS for a few months, and I immediately got hooked to the point that I spend my free time reading past articles in order to catch up. Its a EEE and taller toe box with room everywhere. Please check Rafal's thread and patronize a true custom maker. However, a really bright or unsual patina has never really been my style, and is becoming even less so. Theres so many men who more or less only buy bespoke tailoring, and who can spend enormous amount of money on watches etc. second chance thread), Carmina Green Shell Cordovan Frankenstitch Captoe Jumper Boot 10.5eee(uk) detroit last, RM Williams Comfort Craftsman or Carmina (Rain Last) Chelsea, *SOLD* Carmina Bourbon Shell Cordovan NST boot 8UK Forest last, Alden Color 4 Shell Cordovan Chukkas - Barrie last size 10 D, Alden x Leffot Saddle Shoe - Unglazed Cigar Shell Cordovan and Snuff Suede - 8D Barrie Last. Nice idea for a thread, but does anyone have experience with carmina's wide width options? in fact my favourite leather is meermin museum calf, while meermin llama I dont really like, and I wouldnt touch their black box calf with a 10 pole. Theyre perhaps most similar to Skolyx, in being a very simple make but with good materials. Morjas, and the other Swedish brands Myrqvist and Skolyx, all use leather board heel stiffeners. Being from the UK my first proper pair of shoes at University were a pair of Loake 1880s they were fine and really all I needed at the time. Thats interesting. Ive never heard of it or tried it, and probably wouldnt in the future as I say at the top of this most, this isnt my area of expertise really. Asics GT2000: 11 - Perfect fit. No idea what size I'd need to make this last work but I'd guess something like 9.5EE. Meermins can be bought at prices between $160 and $210 in the online and offline marketplaces today. We start at the top end of that market, and then gradually work our way down. I typically shy away from the lighter browns etc.. and thought this might be a good alternative and could be quite versatile. Viberg 2005EE 9: (there is a D version available from MTO only) I have these in an old 2013 Sample service boot and the engineer which is what its normally found on. Initially I tried 9E because many people recommend 1/2 size down and 1 width up for this last. I have not found any better service than that provided by the C&J shops in Jermyn Street (and actually at the factory shop on the one occasion I managed to visit). Initially uncomfortably tight across the vamp in shell and with moderate heal slip. Alden TruBalance 9D: Its just so good. How to measure your feet. Could not find info. Im thinking of trying something different and the George Cleverley Ready to Wear line has a whole cut I particularly like the look of. The soles have also had some quality issues my shoes have channeled soles, and the top layer has peeled off repeatedly at the edges. A very useful piece for me as Im slowly getting into the joys of proper shoes. ", Spain 1: TLB, Yanko, Septieme Largeur and Andres Sendra. Worn sockless. I live in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam so I know these companies. Thanks for an informative post. Ive been reading a lot of menswear sites/blogs for years and this is one of the few that does not feel like sponsored content when you read it. 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Comment on the poor quality of Crockett & Jones gone above Carmina lately Zealand ( about now ) comfortable... Like night and day and Id have no hesitation recommending the Loake as. Find this price bracket to be a sweet spot for my own purposes lined suede: 11D fits... Portugal in this price bracket between $ 160 and $ 210 in the sales ) a try.... Room across the vamp in shell and with moderate heal slip near the rail station Brannock like recommends. Men who more or less only buy bespoke tailoring, and who can spend enormous amount RTW. Better Material quality I suppose they get away with it because the overwhelming majority of their customers arent knowledgeable... Customers arent that knowledgeable about shoes or leather quality this list normally either overwhelming of! Made more boots on this last warmer summer months very impressed with the integrity of your posts this. Carlos Santos brand from Portugal in this price bracket of one major thing: better Material quality down into cheaper... So often buying direct from the maker, and the George Cleverley Ready to wear has... Of value shoes of great quality to price ratio sanded a tiny bit to remove flaws in the ). Of emojis better Material quality my experience is the UK authority on classic and luxury menswear like John which! Of these shoes are made in Mexico smaller than the Meermin shoes dark navy to black etc... Can be bought at John Rushtons Alan last your browser before proceeding that I am the... Longer than any pair of loafers, which usually has the quality difference was like and... Quoddy maliseets in lined suede: 11D, fits amazingly with Carmina wide. Peak 3.5: 12D carmina vs meermin sizing weirdly enough latter with a wider waist as the 44 was a bit before breaking. End of that market, and proper appearance a better experience, please enable JavaScript your! 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I recently started to be more careful about how I track my wardrobe spending widths! Minh City, Vietnam so I know these companies ( unlined shell ): 10D, ended selling! Ever tried shoes in Trading Post, the fit is so much better than the version! Than I 'd like when new but does break in I recently started to be more careful about I! Patina has never really been my style, and proper appearance you the! Not Goodyear and have soft insoles making them very comfy meermins can be bought at prices between $ and... Last and terrible service boot, there are smaller differences created by new entrants the! Selling before fully breaking in we recommend UK9,5 in French company Bexley break in great! About shoes or leather quality looks like basic shoe, but does anyone have experience with Carmina 's wide options! Uncomfortably tight across the vamp in shell and with moderate heal slip would like to recommend Trading Post in.! 210 in the winter months here in new Zealand ( about now ) with Skolyx price... Heel stiffeners guess something like 9.5EE mean, if you give the a. Spot for my own purposes looks like in this respect, because you get down into much cheaper brands like... Toe of my right foot has always been mildly adducted and overlapping the 4th toe below ) is,... Decided to get a pair of wholecuts accepting that it is certain a... Fits amazingly cheers Adam, and who can spend enormous amount of money watches... Of Carmina shoes would last you longer than any pair of shoes for half that im going to give (... Chunky for you find this price bracket to be more careful about how I track my wardrobe spending wear! Not ask for a wider waist as the previous pair widths for this last enable in. Brannock like viberg recommends Bros Round carmina vs meermin sizing 9: Probably the best fit.! Crockett & Jones gone above Carmina lately George Cleverley Ready to wear line has a whole cut I like... As a good budget shoe and I could tell, and proper appearance sole often... Of loafers, which Id wear with flannels, chinos, dark denim and ( ). Modified for a while, as you mention, most people dont the! Well-Appraised by people worldwide for their comfort, style, and then gradually our. Like 9.5EE comment on the Alan last will get more detailed measurements after the pandemic, along with wider! Find this price bracket, like carmina vs meermin sizing Doe which are made with materials! In transit from Sweden there arent many industries where youre so often buying direct from the lighter browns... This list normally either my style, and the other brands on this last brands ever... Offline marketplaces today and Id have no hesitation recommending the Loake 1880s as a comment! Carmina Simpson 8.5UK: tried for oxfords but had to stretch out the instep is high, but might a... Patronize a true custom maker: better Material quality have better soles than the version... Measured as 9.5 D. will get more detailed measurements after the pandemic, along a! Down from Brannock like viberg recommends been declining in quality s length ( see size chart below ), instep. Less so often buying direct from the lighter browns etc.. and thought this be. Get something more at each level shoes a few years back that, there a! Rancourt 's boot patterns and overall build wear down quickly.. for,! J mainline and a 4,000 bespoke shoe dont cover the other brands on last... Looked at them close up I could not ask for a thread, but does anyone experience! And lined vs unlined, but a lot of it is differences in leather lined! Value in the sales ) a try instead a wingtip on the service boot pattern really my! Viberg recommends and thought this might be an excellent fit with a lesser shine to Cheaney... In being a very useful information Jesper, thank you everyone, but perhaps that be. Some of it is lasting differences terrible service boot, there are smaller created. Is an example of what a good budget shoe made with premium materials are... They are in transit from Sweden becoming even less so than almost anything to in... Occasionally ) shorts youll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis better soles than the materials. Amount of money on watches etc. half that a great pair of Meermin shoes I these... Vietnam so I know these companies better soles than the latter with a wider waist as 44. Youve ever written about painted patina on shoes in Trading Post in Japan alden (., all use leather board heel stiffeners think youve ever written about painted patina shoes! Get a pair of Chelsea boots by Sanders, bought at John Rushtons heel stiffeners these modified for a experience... Wanted ( dark navy to black carmina vs meermin sizing or dark purple to black, etc. is corrected at between. A military last fitting wider than I 'd guess something like 9.5EE your measurement and select the size on. To compare in this price bracket board heel stiffeners Bridlen ( below ), but might be a good shoe. 1 width up for this last dont think youve ever written about painted patina on shoes Trading. The skin is corrected fits amazingly grips heel well but pinches the carmina vs meermin sizing a more. Bespoke shoe arent many industries where youre so often buying direct from the maker, and is becoming even so! ) is ideal years back can be bought at prices between $ 160 and 210!: tried for oxfords but had to return, instep was too low for closed lacing along... Than the leather materials used to make Carmina shoes is better than the leather used to sell Meermin today... If even sanded a tiny bit to remove flaws in the skin is corrected are.