Mostly because Clinton put everyone in a room, for endless hours, to the point where most people wanted to drop and everybody was sitting there around the table. A lot of people didnt realize and I didnt entirely realize the regulatory responsibilities of the RTC at the time. The period during which Bentsens views werent treated with quite enough respect was a very short one. We havent exhausted the topic of budgets and we want to talk further about that, but since youve already opened the door on this question about historical opposition and so forth, I thought that you might want to discuss your perceptions about how the existence of that institution changes the dynamic in Washington. Nobody knew, especially in the White House. I suppose you could have strengthening of the yen, coordinated G7 action to do that. The New York Times put it on the front page and this giant controversy erupted. Well, I got briefed on it and basically, two points here: one is the chairman of the RTC whether it is me or Mr. Casey or the people before him, never were briefed on, exposed to, involved in, or otherwise saw anything at all about the investigations the RTC was pursuing. Mickey Kantor was in charge of the famous Little Rock Economic Summit. Today you have Governor [Howard] Dean, Congressman [Dick] Gephardt, for instance. Was it his personality? No, Im sorry, it didnt have the power to do that, but there were ways of achieving that outcome. So, looking back on it, the nature and the history of those three men had a lot to do with the eventual outcome. Did you go to Little Rock for the election? I think we made some, but it was grudging and limited. So there are the four main elements. You had been asked to be a part of that enterprise. My opponent is distracted by international and other matters. Whenever the times got tough or after they left or whatever it was, I think a lot of people who left the Clinton administration lowered themselves by their own behavior in terms of lesser loyalty than they should have had. Is it okay if we move away from the crisis of getting the big things through to just the more mundane ways that the government ran while you were there? There is a I think history will probably record that as the most important achievement of President Clintons overall Presidency, not the vote itself of course, but the ultimate effects of it. Bentsen also wanted the resignation of the Treasury General Counsel, who resigned too. It was really quite revealing of Clintons inexperience to do it that way, and, for that matter his style, a poor way to do it. Georgetown was the equivalent of a placid, slow-moving river and Chicago was the equivalent of a roaring torrent. It doesnt make sense, it belies any grasp of history, and so forth. But Clinton went for it, Clinton listened, Clinton deserves tremendous credit. There were, however, many people who thought, I would say this was the majority view: well ask for this, were going to end up with this. It is high, because the toll it takes on your life is high and you either run out of money or you just burn yourself out, or you get separated from your family, or whatever it is. But of course Republican support was sought. I dont think Id ever met her, but we were serving on the same board together and we became acquainted and occasionally talked about getting together some way or other. Well, that was just one of the many fatal diseases that this bill had. But a very useful one. I mean, we had these discussions, we had these ways to measure progress and so forth, that sometimes alarmed economists in the United States because they seemed protectionist. I have to tell my most famous Bentsen story because it really illustrates what an extraordinary person Bentsen was. I knew Bob Kerrey quite well by that time and Bob was very unpredictable. We had had recent experience in which the President of the United States took very strong actions against the Japanese, with these agreed-upon quotas for U.S. exports, exports in autos to the U.S., I dont quite remember how longThat was negotiated certainly over the wishes of the Japanese but less than ten years. I mean, he seemed to be quite consistent about that, even though the rest of the field was, as I recall, quite a bit more protectionist. The entire gamut. But was there any perspective then that in fact, the Japanese economy was weak relative to the other G7? Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so before the election, 17 months, and right now of course, the campaign among the Democratic aspirants for the nomination is hot, full-bore, and has been for several months. We knew each other, but we turned out to be the first two to go down and I dont know why that was. Its the biggest story in Washington, Hillary Clinton, the whole thing. He is also a trustee of New York-Presbyterian Hospital, serving on its finance committee. Can you tell us generally about your role during the general election campaign? Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. I disagree that hes under-appreciated. When we had the opportunity to sit down, our own leadershipyou mentioned Leon Panetta, for example, having been chosenand formulate a fresh set of estimates based on all the then latest data, and obviously reaching out to a whole host of experts, it became clear that the deficit outlook was considerably worse than we thought. The time for horse-trading was over. There were some cases where we did, but we didnt broadly know where each member of Congress really stood on this. And, of course, the ATF agents didnt know what they were going to experience and he found himself exposed to an open line of fire. She may have had a lot of influence on it, but I didnt see her. But from their vantage point, thats when they experienced intense partisanship. I think the days for that have largely passed, I dont think members of Congress care much about that. And that kind of input isnt available during the campaign. I mean, it was a larger package as it was originally conceived and then. Then, just after the Senate vote, everyone gathered in the Roosevelt Room, there was quite a celebration, really a quite unique kind of celebration, and I had somebody working for me for a couple of days on a David Letterman style top ten list, why we won the vote. The administration made a change in the way economic policy-making was going to be made too, and I think that choice was made during the transition to have a National Economic Council, and that would have been a great unknown given the Treasurys historical role in economic policy-making. But I worked on a lot of members of Congress, I enjoyed that, I just did. Did he interact comfortably with the other leaders at the summit? Could be. You had made your choice to support him before it was clear that he was going to wow a lot of people in New York. Clinton was offered a compromise by Senators [John] Breaux and [David] Boren. But its been shown before that if you can be to the right of center while still being seen as a true Democrat, its more effective, and Clinton did that. Roger Altman April 4 2016 Receive free US trade updates Well send you a myFT Daily Digest email rounding up the latest US trade news every morning. Bob Dole. Theres also an institutional dimension to the atmosphere in Washington thats very important and distinguishes the current situation from the situation in which you governed, and that is the existence of an independent counsel. But an awful lot of people love being Cabinet officers and leave only most reluctantly. He had a great time. Three-quarters of the people who go into the Cabinet never want to leave it, its great being a Cabinet officer. I respected him, but I never identified with him and I didnt see him being a successful Democratic nominee. Again, I had the benefit of Lloyd Bentsens views. Robert Altman reflects on his college years with President William J. Clinton, 1992 election, Treasury transition, budget plans, Whitewater investigation, and North American Free Trade Agreement. Thats just exactly what I said. It should have, but it hasnt. I think it counts for four, five percent of the spending. By the way, in any matter where the statute of limitations was about to expire, there was nothing specific about the Madison matter that was any different. I mean, to give you an example, wed been in office I think several days, and the Sunday after the inauguration I was sitting at home in New York because my family hadnt moved yet. Well, I recall particularly how weak the field was. We had lunch. So if Clinton and Burns ever had any conversations, they certainly didnt communicate, Im sure. But the key revelation was the most stimulative thing we could do for this economy is to induce a monetary response. Fifty Republicans had announced their opposition, 49 Democrats had announced their support, and Bob Kerrey was strolling around, going to the movies, which is what he was doing. Twofold. I took an hour plus to do this. Well, about ten minutes later President Clinton called me. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. Is this a case where the political people were encouraging him to hold his ground? Clinton, as I mentioned before, held a series of marathon meetings, I recall that virtually all of them were on the Roosevelt Room, and they went on for four, five, six, seven hours, talking about possible elements of the economic program. As a Democratic President however, he could have vetoed the bill and it would have been sustained by Congress. Yes. When we then proceeded on NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which was the next very dramatic moment. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. I think my point is slightly different. This giant controversy erupted over that. I think it was over two days. So that went on with mounting intensity over a series of months after the President had actually laid it out. I have to admit I didnt. Mr. Altman began his investment banking career at Lehman Brothers, advancing to general partner in 1974. I think Clinton will come out pretty well. He moved it to the center, made it the party of fiscal responsibilitywhoever would have believed that?and enabled the party to shed much of its old baggage. He had tried to offer every imaginable olive branch to the Iranian leadership. Well, there was, like most administrations, kind of a running shakeup. Yes, it was a help. I think hes deeply appreciated. I dont recall precisely, but Im sure Im right that Clintons standing in the polls was ebbing. It wasnt as simple as that, lay the groundwork for a new agreement. Ive known many members. I called him and said Id be interested in helping him in some form if there was a way to do that, and then one thing let to another and I got involved, not long thereafter, in his campaign, both from a fundraising point of view and from the point of view of economic policy and issue development. At this point youre working on policy questions primarily? The media to some degree has shifted for, in my view, simple generational reasons, to the right, and the right-of-center media is much more monolithic than the rest of the media, and so its ability to concentrate its opposition and its influence emerged as much greater during the Clinton years. For example, during the Lewinsky matter, the airways were filled with former Clinton officials expounding their views of President Clintons foibles and why he might have done this and this and that. So I didnt take him seriously except as in a sort of inner political context. Yes, but I dont think he thought it was going to be as tough on the Democratic side as it turned out to be. I mean, the worst recession since the Great Depression occurred in 1981 and 1982 and in the fall of 82, in early August, Reagan was being described as Herbert Hoover, politically dead, gone, might as well already make his reservations back to Santa Barbara and so forth. While I never agreed with a single thing that President Reagan ever said, I have to grudgingly concede him that. I remember the very stirring tableau as you may remember, the Clintons and the Gores came out onto this beautifully lit portico and there were, it seemed, thousands of people on the street in front of them. You asked me when the most important policy development occurred and I would say there are several answers to that but number one would be post election, not pre-election. Roger Altman (left) launched Evercore in 1995 and shed the CEO title in May of last year when Ralph Schlosstein (right) took it and quintupled assets under management to $15 billion. That notion took hold at that meeting. Even at the end of 91 it was small and relatively unformed. She had a million task forces, but the senior one. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. Also fifth, to some degree, Alan Greenspan weighed in, and a view developed that if we tightened fiscal policy, there would be the opportunity to loosen monetary policy. Now, it may last five or six more years, it may last 25 more years, I dont know. We had wonderful cooperation, at least in the Treasury. Lloyd Bentsens reputation preceded him and he was a master of the game as far as Washington and the legislative process and handling himself and so forth in a way that few ever have been. There was a widespread sense that Japan was taking advantage of the relationshipin various ways. Can you tell us about that? I, and quite a few other people, had dinner with him, quite a few meaning 15 or so. You know, the only other thought I would express on this is, despite the drama of the moment and the stakes, everyone, as they say, puts on his pants one leg at a time. You had been given a portfolio before that time? Well, nobody took more pain up front than Ronald Reagan. For example, the Btu tax and the raising of the highest rate, highest bracket. So Japan arguably has been in a 12- or 14-year slump, but at that time the weakness in the Japanese economy was seen as just cyclical, not structural. So, to some extent, the President had put himself in a tough spot. So by the time I had to do it again I wasnt particularly concerned. The President said to me at one moment when we were alone, and with great heat, he said to me, Roger, you see, theres no constituency at all for Wall Street economics, which is how he viewed his plan, that hed sold himself to Wall Street and you see theres no constituency for that because were about to lose. It sounds like Bentsens Congressional or legislative savvy was not being availed of in these chaotic meetings, the policy-making meetings. But I think the most that the Fed can be expected to do is move short rates. I left the White House around April, took a couple of months off, and went back to New York. Sometimes without him and sometimes with him, but if Mrs. Clinton was there, everybody else was. You know, she made comments like I could have stayed home and baked cookies but I decided to be a real person, which served to severely antagonize a lot of traditionalists. Finally the famous proposal comes forward and its put before the Congress. I can remember feeling very chastened because he talked about how many children we were helping and how many families we were helping and I chose to try to makejust in the spirit of celebration, a few jokes. That was partly because Bentsen was a person who had never failed at anything. Then it went down to defeat. Thats just the way history works. Those are two different questions, Id rather answer the will be question. We wont get into a philosophy, an argument, about causation, I think Reagans Presidency, a bit, goes against what youre saying, thats all. Did he come to you with an idea about what he wanted to focus on with the economy or some of his primary domestic policies, or was this at this point still in the process of being formulated? Id met Bentsen a few times. Yes, that was bad advice. As I say, we assembled sometime between the 20th and 25th of November in Washington and then December 5th or 6th or 7th or whatever it was he made his choices. So the dynamic between the two was quite an interesting dynamic and quite quicklyto come to your pointafter the stimulus plan went down, Clinton began deferring to Bentsen on everything. Now we became aware pretty early that there were some real problems with this proposal. The assessment was correct because, I cant recall the size of the economy then, but today it is about $10.7 trillion. The Japanese economy was relatively weak at that time although it was in perhaps the first third of its now 12-year, or 14-year slump after the Nikkei peaked at 39,000. By the way, when the three-judge Washington panel that chose Fiske threw him out and replaced him with [Ken] Starr, Starr went back to the beginning and went over the entire thing again and came to the same conclusion. Once again, were grateful for your time. I know the Congress and the Congress isnt going to buy it. Were there follow-up meetings with Japan that you were involved in after the summit? She didnt cast it because of me, but it just became obvious to me in that conversation that she was very reluctant to cast that vote. It was just not very well run, as I recall it, until that time. I didnt. It was really only when Erskine Bowles became Deputy Chief of Staff that a structure began to be built around Clinton that enabled all those processes to become more organized. Is that a fair assessment? For the finance minister of an industrialized country to talk down his own currency always proves to be a mistake, always. I mean, theyre all just issuing healthcare plans right now and there are some important differences among them, but 99 percent of the primary voters will not know those differences. Clinton gave his State of the Union address, the 28th of January, eight days after being inaugurated. But its interesting to put it into perspective. [ALTMAN - comments on the message as to I dont know. The relationship between Clinton and Bentsen was quite unusual. I was the natural person to do that, having served in it before. The Office of Government Ethics came to its conclusion and the Treasury Inspector General as you know is an independent party and came to the same conclusions, the White House counsel came to the same conclusion. Bentsen really respected Dole. He demonstrated his phenomenal grasp of policy issues, just through sitting there for many hours a day. I had the benefit of having the office next to Lloyd Bentsen, and maybe there are some people around, even in American history, that have had a better grasp of the American Congress than Lloyd Bentsen, but I never met one. He had just made it through this cliffhanging vote on which the administrations credibility for the next several years, I think, would largely depend, and it depends on the support of overwhelming shares of Democrats in the House and the Senate to get through. None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. He had good relations with certain members of Congress, and we needed that. That wasnt a very long meeting. Clinton was here, and Mrs. Clinton. Carter had the famous $50 rebate, which became the object of much derision ultimately. The Clinton years were not in any respect unique from that point of view, but that partisanship for some reason or other seems to go in cycles and we just happen to come into office at a time when the cycle was moving up in terms of the scale of partisanship. But I dont recall encountering him at all. Luck plays a big role in politics, and he was really lucky that a number of candidates who could have been very strong ones chose not to run. I was very pleased that he decided not to run because I thought it would just mean the Democrats might well lose again. I know Bentsen, especially in retrospect I know Bentsen. As I recall, Al Gore wanted it, cared a great deal about it, to some considerable degree got his way on it. No, this was in December. There were no violations of ethical guidelines, there was certainly no legal violation, and that proved to be pretty meaningless in the context of the uproar. Hes not focusing on it, he doesnt particularly care about it. They were using very powerful weaponsI think .20 caliber weapons. But also the role of the media had been changing a lot and that role I think manifested itself very vividly in the Clinton years. Im very fond of her, extremely fond of her, and it was, Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. [Mary Todd] Lincoln? Wed sit around in the Roosevelt Room, and you know how it works. I think it did. He just determined each time that what he had to do was get through this chapter and somehow live to fight for the next one and didnt take the longer view. There are many people in the administration who dont like the welfare reform that was ultimately signed, believed that Clinton ultimately turned centrist on the issue and anybody could have done that and once you did it as a Democratic President, you were going to have welfare reform. The Wall Street Journal reporter says to Secretary Bentsen, Mr. Secretary, if you were in the Senate, would you vote for the Presidents healthcare bill? I can even imagine an independent counsel of some kind being unlikely, but not impossible, designated in the whole weapons of mass destruction issue. We know youre extremely busy. But was it a battle? Bentsen advised him to take it. Lets hold off if we can just a couple of minutes before getting into the transition period and let me ask you a couple of questions about the campaign itself. Well, it can be revived at any time, the Congress can just vote to revive it. 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